Welcome to the Authority Hacker podcast, the place to learn incredibly actionable marketing tips to dominate your niche. Now your host, Gael Breton.
Gael: Hey guys, welcome to another Authority Hacker Podcast, this is episode 9 and in this episode, I am interviewing Bryan Harris from videofruit.com. Bryan is a specialist in building email lists and selling products to them, and he is going to share a ton of actionable advice in this episode. We are going to talk about collecting emails in general, we are going to talk about content upgrades, how to use them to understand your audience and how to use them to actually make sales to the people you are collecting emails from. So not just getting the emails but also making money out of the emails and that's really exciting, Bryan, thank you so much for sharing all of that. Before we jump into the interview, I just want to take a minute to welcome all the new members of the Authority Hacker community because there is a lot of new people that came from the recent podcasts I've been doing on NoHat Digital and Niche Pursuits and I want to welcome you and I want to share all these tips that I have to create authority sites to create your websites despite the fact that we are a really small company, without breaking the rules, without being afraid of having Google come one day and just destroy your entire business. So that's what we are all about here. And I am sure you will get a lot of tips in today's episode, if you haven't listened to the other episodes there is also a lot of tips but I'll let you just browse around and go on Sound Cloud or go on iTunes and so on. For now, I am going to bring ahead with Bryan, I hope you'll get a kick out of it and I'll see you at the end of the episode.
Hey guys, so we've got Bryan Harris from Video Fruit on the call today, and I am really excited to have him because he has been blogging a lot about list building and creating a list etc, and according to the numbers he is bragging about, he is getting hundreds of emails every time he posts a blog post, and I just wanted to understand how he does that and talk a bit about all the tactics he talks about in the blog and what's been working for him, what has not been working for him. Bryan, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Bryan: Thanks for having me on.
Gael: Can you just introduce yourself for like 2 minutes so that people that don't know you just know what you are doing.
Bryan: Sure, my name is Bryan, I'm from Alabama, grew up on the Gold Coast. We run a site- an experiment as I've been going a video for the past little over a year now, it originally was a service based business where I had a course I offered which was a product and then had a service I offered which was making videos for other people. Something I kind of just stumbled into, I worked with a little bit of video stuff back in college but never took a class on it, still haven't to this day. I didn't really know what I was doing much at all but found a particular way of making videos that were interesting and made it easy for me, so I created a course just teaching that, and then I went out and started offering my services to companies like Kissmetrics and Hub Spot, and Buffer and AppSumo, people like that and started making videos for them. Then, in October last year I started blogging. And the blogging was really interesting, it was something I did really to learn how to market online, because for the previous 12 years I had been in offline sales and B2B outside sales so everything from conveyor systems to lumber. So I knew how to selfishly and personally I knew how to go out and sell to one individual. So I'm good at getting service contracts, when I had a service to offer really was kind of in my will house, but what I didn't know how to do was build a piece of software or make a course, or create some type of book, whatever. And go sell it online in mass, kind of a B2C type of model, I just hadn't done that before and didn't really know what to do to do that. So, I started writing at Video Fruit, I started reverse engineering what other online marketers were doing, so I would look at somebody and see, "All right, this guy collected half a million email addresses in his first year." I don't think most people even comprehend what that means but that is extraordinary, like I don't know if anybody especially a seller person but not even a large company like a Hub Spot or something that collected half a million people in a year. That is really extraordinary. So, I went out and listened to every interview I could find on Noah Kagan, and started looking and seeing what did he do, I don't want to read an article that you wrote about how to build your list, I want to see what he did, and see if that's still applicable today and if so let's try it. So, that's what Video Fruit is, it's an experiment, it's a lot of analyzing what other people are doing, me applying that to my business and then reporting back on results of that. So that's kind of a long answer to you, but it is kind of a long non focused story, so that's the honest kind of snapshot of what it is.
Gael: Well, obviously it seems to be working, because it seems like you are growing figure in the inbound marketing, making sales online, marketing reverse engineering type stuff, so it seems like observing people is a good strategy for you.
Bryan: It's really interesting looking back now, trying to help somebody else and a lot of times I think we just approach it from the wrong angle, we shouldn't approach it with what type of content can I produce that would be interesting to me, business is all about questions. And that's just the wrong question. For me, the question I always ask is "What do I need to know that doesn't exist right now." So like, write this second one thing that I am learning, doing experimentation and now like I am actually legitimately studying other people is launch sequences. So if you go to launch a product, a software, whatever, what is the best- not best, that's a bad way to phrase it, but what are the available options, what are the available routes other people are taking to go from our to have an email list of 2000 people, I have a course that's $97, how do I tell that email list about it. Do I just send 1 email? Do I send a series of 6 emails? How does that happen? So I am going through a sequence right now on the blog, I am writing a series of posts about that and it's come out of my own curiosity in that there is not a lot of good information on that, there is not a lot of really good detailed analyses of what either I am doing or what other people are doing. So, I am just producing what I wish existed, out of own necessity, because I can't find it.
Gael: Yeah, that makes sense, lie when you check your blog, and I think on that aspect we have a very similar style where you literally just plug your screenflow or something for your videos and you just explain to people like how you are actually doing it by click by click kind of thing. And that stuff doesn't really exist that much.
Bryan: No, it's really shocking, I mean, for online marketers the way they are saturated and to be able to stand out honestly, it's simple, it's not easy, it's a simple process, you just create better content, answer better questions. I like thinking about answering better questions. So, if I am approaching long sequences, go and analyze ten different marketers online in 10 different industries with 10 different approaches and go report on that, and if you do that you've created a better piece of content than anybody else just by answering the question of what are ten different options for launching my course. Like, answer that question, and go out and do that in a very detailed way, and you'll stick out really quickly, so and if you are in a less saturated market that's even easier, or even simpler; you still have to- to me the fundamental skill in all of this stuff, if you take a list based, product based approach, like I am doing, the key to it all is being able to write interesting stuff, like you have to be able to write, if you can't do that, like if you start doing any product and you are halfway blogging, that's a whole lot harder than getting really good at writing. Spend 6 months writing and studying other people and seeing what's working and doing reverse engineering in other people's writing, and if you can get good at writing, all the products, all the sales, all the list building will come out of that, because you can learn the tactics. That was the hardest thing I had to learn to do and I am still learning better ways to write and really to teach, because at the end of the day, that's what I am doing, like I am working on right now a little video introduction for my next post, it's something kind of different that I've never seen done but it's used in TV shows a lot, and it's a pre-role video reminding you about what happened in previous episodes, so I see a blog as a TV show, it's an ongoing thing but the problem with the blog is I put out a post or two a week, and 3 weeks down the line most people that are reading have kind of forgotten what we talked about already. But if that's a series of posts that is building up to a specific call to action, I'm going to remind them, I'm going to do a little 1 or 2 minutes review engaging intriguing video to remind them, "Hey this is what the last three weeks were about. This is why we are even talking about loan sequences because next Monday I am going to have a launch myself " and I want them to kind of remember what's going on and TV does that brilliantly, and reminding me what are the big plotlines that we talked about and that's what we are going to talk about in this coming TV show so you can remember, and in the next one I did the same thing with little 1- 2 minute recap at the beginning. Coming up with unique content pieces, that's something that's kind of fun to do but it's the constant experimentation process.
Gael: Yeah, I mean, you are basically talking about these open loops, I guess you are just opening a new storyline at the end of your blog post. I kind of noticed that reading your blog lately. And saying, "Hey, we are going to talk about that next time," and then I guess now your next step is reminding people that you said you would talk about that-
Bryan: You remind them what you talk about, have the story that you are telling and the lesson you are teaching, and at the end, and throughout the post you open up loops to bring into the next one, like I was watching Game Of Thrones a month or so and it hit me, what in the world, like me and wife are watching Dexter right now and it's like B- TV show but for some reason man, if we turn on one episode we don't stop at one, ever. Like we always watch 3 or 4 episodes, not because we love it, like it's all right, and there is a story that is interesting, but there are just awesome opening loops in the TV show so they bring up fore story lines, they only answer one of them in the show and they leave 3 overhanging to the next one, and then in the next one they bring up 5 more, they answer 2 or 3 from the previous and you always have this unanswered question and that's why Netflix is so popular because you have these ongoing open loop storylines. So I think blogging should be the exactly same way, the way I approached to blogging until early August was having a bunch of blog posts that kind of talked about the same theme, but one you could read and understand one blog post on its own, and not ever be interested in another post or not ever be drawn into a second or third post. So I haven't really installed any new email tactics lately, but I've started using open loops and that caused my site to increase substantially the bounce rate decreased and email subscriptions went up because people want to know the next part of the story. So, one of the number one things that I do is try to pull stuff in from other industries. And the TV industry is the one that is really interesting because they are brilliant story tellers. So let's go study them, see what they are doing and bring those elements over.
Gael: I like it, and in terms of collecting emails because that's the original topic of this podcast would you say you could use open loops to get people for example download your content upgrades, and that kind of stuff, maybe just open loop and be like, "Hey it's closing up in this free download" or something.
Bryan: Yeah. Having open loops is the key to getting people to take action on much of anything, whether that's subscribing or whatever. But a content upgrade, what I see a lot of people do in sense of growing popularity, they write a normal post and then they throw some type of bonus at the end- that's not what a content upgrade is! A content upgrade should be a natural outflow of that post. So, right now writing a blog post about One Month Rails, and they did a product launch recently, and they made a little over $15000 in 24 hours. So that's like the headline on the post, I haven't worked it out yet but that's basically going to be the gist of how One Month Rails made $15000 in 24 hours. So that's kind of the draw over the post, it's in there and I'm just going walk through this structure because this is really important to actually execute very correctly. So the headline draws them in, you need to catch them up to speed what's going on so I'm doing a little video update, you don't necessarily have to do that but some type of one to two sentences that locks them into the post you write the whole post of the- the body of the post I'm explaining I show all 6 emails sequence, I break them down, analyze them, give a few takeaways, give a few tactics, but throughout the whole thing I am teasing that interview I did with him while they were in the middle of their launch. So at the very top of the post I have a little call out box that says, "Hey, be sure to catch the interview we did live during the middle of the launch they are in," and then a couple of times throughout the post I make reference to that as well, and at the very end of the post, I have a big opt in box so they can enter their email address and see the live interview we did while they were in the middle of their launch. So there are 24 hour launch that wasn't closed yet, we jumped on Skype, did the interview, get their numbers at that moment, and that's an interesting draw to get to interview email address for. So your content upgrade has to be balked into it, it can't just be an appendage you add on the end, it has to be part of the whole soul of that post. And when you do that, you'll see substantial
Gael: I think that makes sense. So you are basically thinking about your content upgrades even before you create the post or as you create it, and it's just part of it rather than just like, "Hey I just finished the deploying my blog post to WordPress, let's just figure out that content upgrade."
Bryan: Yeah, a very specific call to action is always going to work over some universal e-book or something you have, so that will always work better. But, you need to get in the head of your post at the content upgrade. So build the whole post of you teaching, provide a ton of valuable information, but at the very end you take it to the next level. So if you are talking about how- like, an example I did recently was how to have a sticky widget on a side of your blog, one of those that kind of scroll with you on the side bar, so I talked and I explained how I did it, I gave some pictures about how I did it, talked about the plugin I used, talked about the design, that whole process, and at the very end I said, "Hey, by the way, if you enter your email address you can download the plugin for free, and you can have that code that I have inside of my little widget text widget in back in the WordPress and you can just copy and paste it in your site." So I taught them how to do it but this enabled them to do it really easily- so could you provide a template, could you provide a workflow, could you provide an e-book that is specific to that, the higher value you go- the higher your opt in rate will be.
Gael: Yeah, I agree, what I like telling people is like the more they can consume in 5 minutes and it changes something in their life, the more you get opt ins. That's how it worked for me. One thing I wanted to talk also about opt ins, is that I've seen that you don't seem to be using opt in pop ups any more on your site despite the fact that you have been talking about them quite a bit, so can you just tell us why?
Bryan: Yeah, I am doing a lot of testing right now, so I've heard a lot about pop ups, I have heard about scroll boxes, I have heard about hello bar, I have heard about everything I have ever experimented with, and I have given results as I have gone and taught people how to do the same thing. But part of the experimentation process was always experimenting with different stuff and what I don't want to do is to have somebody coming to my site and have a scroll box, a pop up, a lead box, and just the crap I want them to do like, what is my goal in the next month or two is to focus on one or two things that work extremely well. So I am going through a little testing right now, sending a little bit of traffic to see how it works, so for the time being, I have decided not to have scroll box and pop up box, just to keep the focus on the content. But the pop up box will definitely be back because I have a specific way I am going to use them going forward. The scroll box I am not a 100% sure on, the scroll box works extremely well but I am just being conscious of not asking too many things, so just because something work, it doesn't mean you have to do it or that you even should do it. The number one thing that works for me is content upgrade. So, I want to have all the focus on the blog post, so I know the people who will read the post, they will opt in. So if I can remove other distractions that increase the chance of that, right now unfortunately with the scroll box plugin I was using you can't do post specific scroll box so you could only do a universal call to action with it, I want to go to all post specific call to actions. So my pop ups will be post specific so that when I have a pop up on any of these launch sequence series I am writing right now they will be a pop up that is not download opt in to this very popular thing, it will be opt in to this specific post content upgrade, so it will be specific to that post. So that's why I am going to go back to once I go to this round of testing, but to decrease the amount of time, I will remove a bunch of stuff to make it easier to test. So, that also is sort of popping up but I might decide not to add some of that stuff back because it might work but I might not like it, or it might remove the focus from what I wanted, like for instance over the last week I've been running a contest. When I was running that contest, I removed everything on my sidebar, I removed my hello bar, and the only call to action on the blog outside the post specific call to actions the content upgrade, was for the giveaway itself, because I wanted all the traffic to go to that- did I lose some signups in the process- probably so, but I got sign ups where I wanted them.
Gael: Yeah, that makes sense. One last thing that I wanted to ask as well is obviously, with content upgrades you get people that come with different points of interest, you get people opting in on your old opt in pop up blog post, and you get people opting in on your launch sequence blog post. Their motivations are obviously different- how do you go about communicating with them after they opted in, like do you do any kind of segmentation after they opted in based on the thing they opted in for, and what's your strategy here?
Bryan: Yeah. So a couple of things, 1) the making sure you are keeping up with opts into what is really important. So if you just started referring the first couple of year and you are trying to get traction, you are trying to figure out- like I've been working with one guy who's been around for long time and has a 100 000+ uniques a month, but he has never done product very well. Like he's done a couple of books but nothing that's really, no recurring launch course type of deal and that's something he wants to do. So something we've done is going back through this top 25 posts and add content upgrades to all of them, and add them to post going forward, because what we are looking for are the points of interest in those posts so when you have tagged your people and when you have kept up with who is opted into what, you can look back over your history and see, all right, these three categories for me, my 3 categories are how to get traffic, how to build a list, how to launch a product or sales. So those are the three categories. But, these are the three main categories [20:36 inaudible] my content upgrades over those three categories, and see which one people have opted into the most, that indicates a specific interest. I wrote a post on how to build a business in 14 days with no idea, and that post got like 600 opt ins which was like double what is normal on my blog right now, so that was a spike, that was a high level of interest. So, if I was looking for a product to build right now, that would be a very obvious thing to do because I could write and talk about and produce content and teach a whole lot more on that subject because I hadn't really talked about it in depth much at all. So that is a high level of interest and if I wanted to do that before I go and create a product, I could go to those specific 600 people and pitch the idea that I wanted to build and see if they were
Gael: Hey, guys, this is where the conversation cut with Brian, my connection wasn't very good and as a result the call dropped. So I called him back and he went back a little bit in the conversation but gave new elements into how he does his sales pages and his pitching to the people that have been opting in from the content upgrades. So, I am going to put all of it even though there is a little bit of repetition from a little bit before, keep listening there is still a lot of great info coming up in this interview. So I'll see you at the end of the episode, enjoy the interview.
Bryan: With 800 people over the course of multiple blog post that had shown interest in being opt into the content upgrade, of this genre of product, so I wrote a sales letter describing what I thought the product could be and asked them would you buy this, and anybody that said yes, I immediately gave them a link so they could pre-order. I did that with the group of 40, I did that with the group of 50, did with a group of 200, did it with a group of 800. And over the course of pre-sailing it to those 3 groups and making the product and having different iterations, I perfected, I made a product that was way better than it would have been had I just gone to my room and built something and come out and said, hey people, buy it. Because it was a product that was burst in content upgrades, that was burst in people raising their hand and saying yes I am interested in this topic, I want more templates, I want to know more about what contractors you use, I want to know more about your workflow. So I just created a product that was all of my contractors, all of my templates, and all of my workflows and that's the product. So, but I validated the different stages, I validated the content, and now I am getting ready to launch it next week to the entire list but it's a product that has been paid for ahead of time and validated ahead of time, and was my own reader's idea. So that is one of the most valuable parts of content upgrades- I don't think anybody is doing much anything in that area. So this will be a big case that will be right up after this launch, just showing I went to that process of using the content upgrade to get an idea for a product, validate the product, build the product, and ultimately launch the product all from content upgrades.
Gael: And, you just go to like pitch the people right away or do you have any kind of way to like warm them up before you go and pitch them?
Bryan: None of this is automated, so right now when you opt into my list you get blog post. There is no automated drift sequence or anything like that, that's something that I need to do, but just isn't in the focus right now, so right now when you opt in to my list, pretty much the only way you can opt into the list is via content upgrade, so when you download the content upgrade, you are also agreeing inside that box where you opt in to receive weekly emails from me. So I send out one or two emails a week, and you start getting those. Nothing else happens. This product validation was something where I said, all right, I want to build another product so let me see what my readers are most interested in, then I just will analyze the data that I've been collecting over the past 8 months, that's my collecting that data before you have an idea is the best because it will give you the idea and it will point you in the right direction by having all that information.
Gael: Well. I like it a lot because we went from like collecting emails with content upgrades to actually make money from content upgrades. Which is amazing, because like it's not just about building your list it's also about having people rise their hands and say what they want and you just go and build it for them.
Bryan: The great thing with content upgrades is that you can cover all three aspects. So the aspects in any business is traffic, emails in our world and then selling to them. And you can get traffic by guest posting with content upgrades but that does not sell traffic and emails, you can do content upgrades on your own blog and any blog post and then use the content upgrades 3, 4, 5, 6 months when you have some data set up and you can probably do it quicker than that. Then build the product all of that comes from content upgrades, it's a great way to get traffic build a list and find a product and build the product and validate the product, and sell the product. So, I am obviously a big fan of it, so...
Gael: Yeah, I agree. I am actually doing exactly the same thing, I'd literally took the most popular blog post I have on the site and I am creating like a blown up product out of it and I had a fake sales page up so when people opt in on that page there is literally just a fake sales page and that it was tracking how many people click by and it wasn't ready it would just say, "Oops, it's not ready, I'll just email you when it's ready" and I put them on a specific list when they reach out that page, you know. So yeah, that's pretty cool. Now, I just want to like finish this interview, asking you if you have like 1, 2 or 3 little tricks that you figure out along the way that made your content upgrades like, either like get more opt ins or get people more engaged with your emails or anything like that, because I am sure you figured it out as you go you are like, "Oh, I just did that little thing differently and that worked a lot better." You obviously explained how you bake it into content but is there anything else that you could share on making these work better?
Bryan: On content upgrades or so?
Gael: Just email subscriptions I guess.
Bryan: One think and this is kind of something, some people are uneasy about, but I don't have any problems with it, and I consider myself pretty above board, something I started doing is at the end of every email I write [27:29 inaudible] . What that does is pushes your own subscribe call to action thing down there beyond the line of site and for me I like that because any time you make me make a decision, like don't make your customers or your readers make a decision to stay subscribed every time you send them an email. Now, that doesn't mean you hide the unsubscribe button- I think that's actually against the law, and that's not the point of this, the point is whenever you scroll down in any of your emails, you hit the bottom line, and then you see the blank space you assume that email is done so you stop reading. Most people get out of the email at that point or click the link or whatever the call to action is. If you have the unsubscribe button directly below that dash Brian, dash your name, at the end of the email, they read that and they have to make a conscious decision do I want to click that or not, it's a link that they are asking me to do something, do you still want to get emails, click yes or click no to unsubscribe, you ask me a question which I have to answer, I mean you are making me make a decision. I don't like that, so by pressing [28:35 inaudible] them you can move that out of the line of sight, not out of the email, people want to find that all they have to do is scroll down and click the button. It's still one click out. That's one thing I have done to cut my unsubscriber in half actually. Another thing I do is I don't put the entire email inside of the post, some people do, that's fine, I get why they do it, I like getting people back to my site, I like training people to constantly take action. So whether they are in with their email address or content upgrade, whether they are clicking to get the whole post-- people that are on my list are used to doing that and it's not a lazy readership the people that are used to doing one or two things over time like. So, eventually, if they buy something I ask them to sign up for a contest or whatever, they are a lot more likely because they are so much trained to do that. That would be another thing. Another thing that I learned recently, was putting a call to action above the fold in your email. Not having email with "click here to continue reading" at the very bottom. Most people don't get down that far. So, what I have done, I don't put in the first line, but having it 3 or 4 lines down on my longer email I'll usually have "click here to read entire article/ click here to get the content upgrade" and them hover to the post on my site. That might be a third thing, that's a little smaller, but it increases your click through rates, which is good, and gets you traffic to your site. So, that would probably be the third thing. On content upgrades itself it's all about baking it into the post, that's the biggest thing for that. I'll tell you one thing just an email in general that I have found recently- I did a giveaway over the last 2 weeks and that collected around 2400 email addresses in a ten day period, that was the single biggest thing I have ever done, to grow my list and I did it right before a launch, which was a little bit incidental but now it looks kind of smart because it gave an immediate boost to the list that boosted me over 10 000 subscribers. And, I am about to launch a product, so I probably won't anybody that is brand new to the blog I probably won't pitch them immediately, they could have kind of a good will built up, but it gave me a massive boost to my list just before the post, just before the launch goes out. And it also builds up the good will with your current readership, because I did a giveaway where only 1 person won and they won a decade subscription, but also anybody to get more people to share or people to opt in to giveaway also they get a free $900 lead page template like a custom design template. So, a lot of people will get a lot of free stuff which is good to do right before you launch something because it builds up sentiment and good will and everything, it puts everybody in the good mood when they get free stuff, so. That is probably another thing, just kind of a tip- find some tool or some subscription type of software and give away a month, or give away a year, give away a decade or give away a lifetime subscription, it's something people really want, and that's something that have worked extremely well for me.
Gael: That's actually something I am planning as well and I found it very easy to convince software companies or companies that have low marginal cost to producing extra unit of the product, to just give stuff away as long as their logo is featured or something.
Bryan: Even if you can't- look at the map- over 10 years I paid 2800 dollars, paid yearly so it's $280 a year and for $2800, I got $2500 email addresses, so that cost a little over $1 per email address, which is a great acquisition, right, so even if you have to pay full cost, it's still very much worth it if you can hit your goals.
Gael: Yeah, I mean, the cost you just shared is pretty much what I am paying doing Facebook PPC to expand my list as well, I do quite a bit of PPC as well, and re-targeting and all these things.
Bryan: Facebook campaigns can drive you crazy.
Gael: I agree, and I am actually going to do both because I think it's amazing, especially if for software you can really just get them associated with it and you don't even need to pay actually. I've managed to get some free stuff. But yeah, I agree, all these tactics are like super useful. Bryan, I know you have to go, so thank you so much for all the tips, I look forward to have you again on the podcast some day, and everyone- if you like what Bryan shared today, just go and check it out on his blog, he share a hell of a lot more on the blog the videofruit.com, I'll be linking to this on the podcast show notes, and the show notes is just going to come in the outros. Thank you Bryan and yeah, thank you for being here.
Bryan: Yeah, thanks. And I have set up a URL and everybody that listen to the podcast, if you want to get some of the email strategies, just go to videofruit.com/email and have an e-book and some videos, and some training stuff, it's all free that will kind of help you on building your email list. Because that is kind of the unicorn thing that everybody chases that is really hard, and just doing kind of experimentation I found a few methods that do extremely well; all of it is free, check it out. And you can email me at [email protected] if you have any questions.
Gael: Alright, cool, thank you Bryan, we'll see you guys in next episode.
Bryan: Thank you.
Gael: Alright guys, I hope you enjoyed the interview with Bryan. I think you will agree with me that he really knows what he is talking about when it comes to content upgrades and capturing emails, and then actually making sales out of them. Now, I have actually put together a pdf with 3 more little tricks that will your content upgrades make you more emails, and also make you more money. So, if you want to download that pdf, go on authorityhacker.com/podcast9. I hope you enjoyed this episode, and I'll see you next week.
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